Do you think this experience have some impact directly or indirectly on what you are currently doing as was the first interaction or how did you land into Shopify plan?
Interesting. So currently are almost like a nine or 10 years of doing Shopify development.
The experience before the COVID and during the COVID being someone who is like a specialized in Shopify development.
I think it's still the case. It's still hard to get into Shopify team, especially the Shopify team store like with approval process that are long.
It was a long process. It honestly was review and approval process was like maybe six months.
Like it was pretty it was pretty it kind of sucks when like you you work on a project for like a year and then like you have to do like another four or five months for review.
And what is the thing that you will get back from that approval that you will get into Shopify team?
Not only in terms of sales, but also in terms of like a credibility.
90% of our revenues now like selling our products and then like 10% is like doing service work.
You are building a Shopify team that's my or might not get approved by Shopify team and you are leaving money on the table because you are not building client and you are using resources to be able to build Shopify team.
If you're on if you're getting views that's like free marketing and if you were to do anything else sell it on your own.
You have to do all that marketing yourself getting like thousands of visitors to our like the most things from like Singapore and like Hong Kong and it's like clearly just bought traffic which is like potentially bringing down our ranking.
Now what is the thing that was most challenging during this entire journey?
It's always like a good to be part of someone else's story in a good way.
Yeah, like if you ask like oh like should I do this?
Like is this a good solution?
They're like that's a great solution.
Like are you sure?
So welcome guys.
We are LLS podcast a podcast we interview software engineer to share the entrepreneur story and here we are on episode number 13 and we have Thomas from break space labs.
He is the founder of Bricks Space Lab.
He is one of behind the scene of some popular Shopify team like Kstone Paper and Space.
He got his bachelor degree of commerce and e-business from Humber College and we will be diving more about Thomas story after this week intro.
Thank you.
Thank you.
I'm excited to be here.
Thank you.
So thank you Thomas for joining us for today episode.
It will be a pleasure housing for today episode.
So can you give the audience introduction more insight about yourself so people that doesn't know you will know more about you.
Intro about me.
I mean I feel like you kind of covered most of it but yeah I can give you the quick intro.
I run a software business called Bricks Space Lab and we sell Shopify themes.
Right now we have three themes available.
We're working on a fourth.
We're a small team but I've been in the Shopify like development ecosystem for over five years now and I've been in like web development maybe for like 10 years.
Self taught and yeah I mean that's that's kind of the the short the short story of it.
Awesome.
That's great.
So for the first question that I usually ask and I love this question so much because how this like a story of web development started.
How was your first interaction with computer as someone who is liking to call my first introduction to computers.
I would say I mean like at a very young age like the first introduction would probably be video games.
Like I remember playing the original like PlayStation one that came out and definitely being like kind of fascinated by that like how the games work.
I remember growing up as a kid like oh I want to like I want to make video games like that seems so cool.
That was definitely the first introduction.
I never really like went into that at all but like it was like something that like maybe sparked a bit of an interest from that early age in terms of like actual coding.
I didn't actually get into that until like college where there was like some like interlevel courses and I did that and then like kind of started like getting interested at the same time and started like teaching myself on top of like some of the classes I was in.
Interesting.
That's great.
It doesn't like I remember me like a PlayStation one and Atari people that know about it.
That's really great.
And like how was the switch from being someone who is like I would like to explore what is behind the scene of a game and what is like curiosity behind that.
How this one switch from something that is thus would like to discover to something that is I would say a person do something that you will be you can make money from it.
Yeah.
That was also something I was thinking about this like a lot of a lot of the time really like growing up.
I think I've always kind of been like an entrepreneurial like minded person like just like growing up doing like yard sales and like selling things like to classmates like that kind of stuff.
And I knew that was like something that I'd want to do like maybe start my own business or have something that gives me freedom like that.
And as I was like maybe like getting older going through college like seeing how the Internet enables like entrepreneurship on like maybe a more open in a more open way like you can build a product software product and sell it anywhere globally.
And like that really opened the doors to me like wow like I can learn to code.
I can build a business.
All I need is a laptop.
So knowing that was definitely part of like the motivation for me is like OK this is like a legit career path like I figure this out.
I can I can do something with it.
Yeah it makes sense.
That's great because like the thing about special about like a software product and especially if you are like someone who is like already know like a development and coding you will be like a half zoo investment other than the time that you will be pushing it.
So because most of the things are pretty accessible in terms of hosting and other provider.
So the only thing that I would say that will be the expense.
It will be the development cost and you will already know how to develop things.
So it will be just like a push in the time in and just like a sacrifice in the time and make sure and set up in yourself for success to be able to make software projects or a tool success.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like when I was first getting into coding I was like it was didn't feel like much of a sacrifice but I was I was like locked in and I would just be like coding for like 12 hours like nonstop.
And just I kind of caught the bug and like it was like kind of fun.
It was like a puzzle I guess like learning new things like once you kind of once you get like a taste of it like you just want to like keep going.
So yeah.
I mean maybe that's a bit of workaholism but like at that at that point in my life it was like it was very helpful to have that.
Yeah.
Makes sense.
Yeah.
Like I also like I remember some of the time that I was early like learning how to code.
I was like I spent in one time that I I remember exactly I was like I spent I spent like a 16 to 17 hours a day to learn to code.
Like a horrific.
It wasn't like something that is good.
But it was something that I was like a remember from that period which is like something that is I would say it's good to be able to spend some time to be able to learn your craft and make sure that you are like a building some product to be able to improve your skills
and make sure that you are top of the stuff that you are working on which is really great.
And also this will be leading me to one of the questions.
So currently you have a bachelor degree from commerce and e-business.
Yeah.
And and you learn how to code the self thought way.
Did you like a have a job that is not related to web development first and after that you switch to like a being a developer.
How was did you ever use your bachelor degree in some sense in a professional way I would say.
Yeah.
That's a good question.
So I not really.
So well maybe for a bit.
So I did do an internship at this company called Student Car Share which isn't around anymore.
But at the time they were like a car sharing company similar like Zipcar and I was kind of hired as like a intern and I was doing all kinds of things.
But it was like primarily marketing.
But since I had a bit of like coding experience I ended up doing like a lot of work on their website as well like building landing pages like installing Facebook pixels like maybe more technical marketing things.
And that kind of like opened the maybe like got me introduced to like that that direction in my career like oh OK like I can go I can do the development stuff and make that a career.
And truthfully the marketing stuff like wasn't that appealing to me so I'm happy I kind of pivoted away from that.
Makes sense.
And also do you think at this the marketing experience or the marketing academic way has some good impact on what you are currently running because you are currently the founder of Brexit Lab which is a Shopify diversity.
This will be like a good part of development but also they will be like a some part of business and marketing.
Do you think this experience have some impact directly or directly on what you are currently doing as a founder.
In terms of marketing yes and no I feel like every day I get confused about marketing and how to sell our products.
I mean as much as like yeah I've done Facebook ads I've done these other things like it just feels completely different to do it for like our business and like a software business selling Shopify themes.
It's like not like a typical like consumer product.
So yes yes and no like I have experience doing some of that stuff but like never really done it for software.
And I don't know how much those things like correlate especially because I guess our marketing just feels like confusing in the sense that like it's hard to see what's working.
So I'm always like at that stage where I just feel like I'm throwing things at the wall waiting for something to stick and there isn't always sticking.
Yeah it makes sense because I asked this question because also I study bachelor degree in commerce and marketing and one of the things that I learned during my academic like experience is some stuff that helped me with like I would say my freelance stuff or something
that is related to what I'm doing as a web developer and like I would say freelancer.
So this is like why I asked this question because sometimes you don't like realize some part that you learn in like like an academic way that you think is useless.
But when you are doing something in your life you will be you will have some aha moment.
I learned about that in like my in a class or like doing a study or something like this.
So this is like just like the context of why I asked this question specifically.
Honestly I feel like I was in like school so long ago.
It's like hard for me to like really even remember any of that.
Like and I'm sure like I do like subconsciously reference that like knowledge periodically.
But like honestly I feel like most of what I do on a day to day like I've just learned by doing like I didn't start a business knowing how to run a business.
I didn't start coding knowing how to do everything in a Shopify theme.
Like I definitely remember picking up like development jobs freelance jobs like never having done that thing before and then just learning it on the spot.
That's just kind of more of the person of who I am.
Like I just learned by doing so I've always just been like yeah let me figure this out.
I can I can get it done for you and 90% of time like I'll figure it out or 10% of time to just not awesome.
Yeah makes sense.
I always like to learn by doing but just like sometimes as you mentioned like it will be subconsciously that you will reference something from like at the like at school or like something like it's needed to that.
So that's what I would like to mention that.
And like I'm talking about currently you are like at the founder of BrexLab which is a Shopify specific deep agency that is developing Shopify team and also helping other clients with the setup in of their Shopify team.
Customizing everything so it would be a Shopify Dev shop also a Shopify lab for developing a team.
So what was the first interaction or how did you land into Shopify platform.
Like are you being a user.
It did someone like a refer you to like a freelance gig.
Yeah.
So it was a bit of both before getting into Shopify I was kind of just doing freelance web design or web development for anything.
Like so I didn't really have a specific focus.
So it was honestly like from a business point of view like it was hard to find clients because there wasn't really a focus in our or my my specific skills.
So like it was hard to be like OK like does anyone need a web designer versus like oh like I'm a Shopify designer.
Like this is what I do.
I can help you with this.
I then I know who to go to.
So yeah there wasn't a focus when I first started.
So I remember doing WordPress things like random landing pages like different different email flows like all kinds of sort of stuff.
But around that time I did.
I did figure out OK like e-commerce is a thing.
Shopify is like a growing software definitely looks like it's top of the game in terms of like e-commerce providers.
So I went in to figure out more about that started playing around with it a lot.
And I actually started my own Shopify business like merchant with my girlfriend and I we started selling like t-shirts with maps on them.
And I think like at least 50 percent of the motivation to do that was just I just wanted to build a website on Shopify basically.
So like that was like a big learning experience and there was like a lot of like technical things that went into like the website.
Like we had like a map box integration and it would like show you like products based on like your location.
And so if you're in like Toronto like it would show you like here's a shirt with Toronto on it.
So like that was like a big part of like learning Shopify.
And then like throughout that time I started picking up more work for like Shopify specific clients as well.
So it kind of just snowballed from there.
Like you get one client you get another client and I'm building this website at the same time.
And after like a year or two like I've got tons of experience.
Awesome. Funny enough that you are in the same city as the Shopify headquarters.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
That's funny.
And like at which time you are we are talking about when you switch from being like I would say general web developer to being Shopify specific developer or designer.
That was like 2016 2017.
I think that's around the time where we were doing the t-shirt business.
And then I also joined on store tasker if you're familiar.
Yes.
And then I was picking up more freelance gigs through store tasker or Shopify specific clients at that time.
Yeah.
And then just did like freelance for probably like two or three years just solo.
Interesting.
So currently are almost like a nine or 10 years of doing Shopify development.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Honestly like it's it's been a while for sure.
The first few years I was like doing doing like solo like just myself and then like in 2018 I think I hired someone and then like we've just been like kind of a small team since then.
Awesome.
That's great.
And also in the same time that you mentioned which is 2018 you started in January of 2018 Brick's base lab which is the lab behind the Shopify team.
How was this move from being a solo developer to having your own company and you would be developing Shopify team.
How was the first client or interaction.
It was like from the first that you started the company you have been doing like a freelance client or you have been building Shopify team.
Yeah.
That transition it's I mean I guess it took a while.
I mean like I said I learned by doing and I've never I've never hired someone before.
So that was like a learning experience in itself.
But I think I was just at that point in like my career where it's like I was getting more work than I could just I couldn't do it all myself.
So it just had to happen.
And it it was kind of very it was very like smooth like we're pretty much like doing the same stuff I would be doing but with extra help.
And then it honestly wasn't until like maybe like 2020 until maybe until we started working on like themes for the theme store.
But before that we were still just doing like client projects.
Makes sense.
OK.
That's great.
And how was the experience before the COVID and during the COVID being someone who is like a specialized in Shopify development.
How was the spike of like a client that you are getting or product that you are getting during that period of switching to online.
Yeah.
Honestly there wasn't like I don't know if I noticed much of a change during COVID like at least in our business.
Like we had a client they were still like needing work done.
They still like needed development health.
So like I don't know if there was like there definitely wasn't a drop in our business.
I don't know if there's like a tick up like a substantial tick up.
I think it was just like we just kept kept on the same trend basically.
OK.
Makes sense.
Because I asked this question because like one of the guests in the season number one of the podcast it was Kylie from the top room.
And we discussed this movement of like a spike in terms of like a getting project during the COVID area.
Actually that it was like a very like a decent in term of number of products and a lot of people are declining or abandoning the products because of like a going back to offline.
So I just would like to get like a reference about the same area from a different company from it.
Yeah.
I mean like a lot of our clients were seeing like good traction like like they were they were seeing like almost like good sales.
But like that didn't really like correspond to us.
And truthfully that's probably because like we're just a small team and like we can't do like at the time doing freelance work.
Like if we're maxed out on the number of projects we did we can do like we can't just take on more work as much as there might have been more work available.
We just couldn't do it all.
Yeah.
Makes sense.
Yeah.
Got the point.
But as you mentioned in 2020 2020 you start developing Shopify team.
Yeah.
How was the first idea of getting into Shopify team because I remember and I think it's still the case.
It's still hard to get into Shopify team.
The Shopify team store like with approval process that are long.
Also the opening are not like quite frequent and quite open as the Shopify app store.
So you need to wait to be able to to have the option or the opportunity to submit the Shopify team to the Shopify team store to get approved.
And there are lots of like a checklist that you need to take to be able to get approved.
How was the idea and from the idea into the first Shopify team approval how was the experience.
Yeah.
It was a long process.
It honestly was the first thing we made like I think the like review and approval process was like maybe six months like it was pretty it was pretty long.
And the actual like I would say probably over a year like from when we first started to like when it when it like launched.
I don't exactly remember but I would say over a year.
And I mean the process was like I mean I think someone from Shopify actually reached out to us and they were like they said that they are looking for more companies to build themes.
And I think previous to that the theme store was like closed for submissions but I remember like they opened it back up.
And that's when I was like OK like this is something we should do like I've wanted to do this for a while and it makes sense.
So we just started working on it right away.
And it's definitely a long process like it's like a lot of upfront development like and you really have to make sure you meet all those requirements because it's it kind of sucks when like you you work on a project for like a year.
And then like you have to do like another four or five months for review.
I think even during that review process there was like things that we had to like take out like feature wise and then those features like ended up being released on like Shopify free themes later.
And then it's like OK we could just add those features back.
So there's a lot of like back and forth that like felt maybe unnecessary but at the end of the day it was like good to get on the theme store.
Makes sense.
That's great.
And the second question that I would like to ask specifically about the Shopify app.
The Shopify team submission is what is the ROI or return investment because you mentioned that you will be putting some upfront development and also the review process will be longer.
And what is the thing that you will get back from that approval that you will get into Shopify team not only in terms of sales but also in terms of like a credibility because it will be one of the few like agency or like a company that
have some Shopify team approved on the Shopify team store.
So we'll give some credibility some brand awareness to your company or to your agency.
How do you evaluate that.
I would say before we were selling Shopify themes like our entire business was like based on client work.
So we would have to find projects build like custom work for like Shopify websites.
And that's how we're making money like billing clients basically.
But since we've released Shopify themes it's like our revenues shared like pretty much split.
So maybe not split but like much much further into the Shopify theme.
So like maybe like 90 percent of our revenues now like selling our products and then like 10 percent is like doing service work like billing clients.
So it's definitely come in and like kind of swap that around in terms of like our business model which is like what I was hoping for honestly.
But it was a it's a long process to get there honestly.
Yeah it makes sense.
And also in terms of like you mentioned that in terms of sales that is currently 90 percent of the revenues coming from the Shopify team and the product that you are selling.
And 10 percent is coming from the server that you provide.
And also in terms of like a brand awareness.
So for like a question like what is the impact that you are getting from submitting a Shopify team and getting approved over the Shopify team.
Absor impact on the brand itself or breaks space lab brand awareness.
Our people are talking about it.
Mention it.
Know about it through the Shopify app store or to buy a team store.
I would say.
Yeah.
You know feedback has been like a really hard thing to to manage or even like get for Shopify themes.
And I think a big part of that is because because it's like on the theme store.
We don't really have access to do as much like marketing like in terms of like feedback and like collecting customer insights.
Just because like the theme store is like it's controlled by Shopify.
So we don't really like we can't go in and like put like a survey on like our theme listening page.
Like we can't like ask for specific things or like how you how you might go after get collecting feedback for like your own company.
Like a lot of that is harder to do.
But I will say like just just listening on like just listening to like customer support like people who email in about issues.
That's been like probably the number one place for us to get feedback just based on like what isn't working.
So I think the first year when our theme paper came out it wasn't doing the best in terms of sales for the first year or so.
And like that's when or it wasn't doing like as good as it is now.
And that's like a lot of like throughout that first year there is a lot of going back and forth updating the theme listening to feedback fixing bugs listening to feedback releasing this new feature people want.
Like and yeah I mean that was just like a long process like OK we want to get this seem to a point where like people can use it and like it and enjoy it.
It just took a lot of a lot of feedback basically listening waiting letting people find that letting people find the theme install it.
Your thoughts.
OK got the point.
And also like you mentioned a couple of things that I would like to get your idea about like currently there is a risk of building a Shopify team and getting up because it will be some upfront development.
It's not like some like just like work it will be like a maybe six months to a year of just developing the Shopify team.
Other than that will be some review process that will be hectic and hefty to be able to get approved by the Shopify team which is good to be able to make the standard that Shopify is looking for.
And what do you think.
And also what are the trade off that you are pushing in because you are building a Shopify team that's my or my not get approved by Shopify team.
And you are leaving money on the table because you are not building client and you are using resources to be able to build Shopify team.
What is the trade off that you are putting in the table for building a Shopify team that will be go specifically to Shopify app store because I know that there is a couple of other companies that are building Shopify team but they are not meant to be published over
Shopify team app store to be able to go to third party supplier or like to their own platform to buy their license for the team.
Yeah.
Honestly that is something I've considered a lot.
And I mean it's a big trade off the theme store is obviously like a marketplace that gets tons of traffic.
So if you are on it and if you do and if you are getting visibility on the theme store then like it makes sense to be there and it's like worth the review process.
It's worth going through the requirements and like meeting all that stuff because like if you're on if you're getting views that's like free marketing.
And if you were to do anything else sell it on your own you have to do all that marketing yourself.
Like if we were to just sell themes on our own website our website doesn't get views the way that the Shopify theme store gets views.
But if we were to do that we would be able to control the marketing a lot more but I don't think I have the capacity to do that right now.
So at this point it's a it's let's build a really good product and get get in the theme store and hope that that marketing the network and the marketplace will reward us for just having a really good product.
Yeah.
Makes sense.
That's really good point because yeah there's like a big trade off to be able to just rely on one platform and pushing a lot of work up front to be able to get approved.
Which is like a great to be able to hear that is worth the trade off to be able to get there because as we mentioned there's a couple of things that need to be checked.
And other than that like how so currently you have three Shopify team.
You mentioned the first one was paper maybe the second one is case stone and other one in space which is currently on the Shopify app store and is a part of like what you are building.
So currently you are only specific to developing Shopify team.
Have you ever considered building maybe Shopify apps or something around that we will to extend offering because you already Shopify.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I have thought about theme or have thought about building an app and I still am actively that just something where it's hard to split like my time and focus between different things like that.
And I mean I always say this to other people like oh if something's working in your business just do more of the same thing.
And I always I forget that I say that to other people because I always try to do other things and like I guess so chaotic and like I guess my focus and I need to remember like OK we're selling Shopify themes are themes are selling.
Let's just do more of this like this is working which has been the focus but I won't lie and say that there has been times and like often where I'm like thinking about building other things and taking the business in a different direction.
That's definitely still something I think about all the time.
Makes sense.
That's great.
That's great thing to me because I think because you already in Shopify already familiar with all of stuff about like a platform limitations or it will be like I would say have all the knowledge to be able to build a Shopify app in terms of the platform knowledge.
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
It's it's on my radar.
I do want to do it.
But we'll just have to figure out when and where and how.
Yeah.
It just a matter of time.
Yeah.
That's great.
And talking about the stuff that you mentioned it would you like to mention some numbers maybe sales if you don't mind sharing maybe reviews anything that you would like to share with the audience that you are comfortable with.
You can share it here in terms of numbers related to Shopify team.
Numbers.
I don't know how comfortable I am sharing numbers but I mean our business is doing well.
But the I mean I will also say that like the thing with being on the theme store is like the marketplace is unpredictable and like rankings and algorithms change all the time.
And there's like a lot of maybe like the theme stores like a bit susceptible to like less than like people kind of like gaming the system.
There's been like some people doing like there's been a lot of like spam traffic on the theme store as well which hasn't been confirmed but like it seems to be affecting like the algorithm and how it ranks themes.
So we've noticed a lot like at least in the past two months where we've been getting like thousands of visitors to our like the most things from like Singapore and like Hong Kong and it's like clearly just bot traffic which is like potentially bringing down our rankings.
So instead of having like a higher install right now we're getting a ton of like visitors to our listing who aren't installing.
Now we're now we're lower in the rankings and that can have that had like a really big hit on us for our sales this month which was unfortunate.
It's like these are just things that we can't control.
They're just outside of our control.
But yeah I mean other than that it's good.
You just have to like kind of roll with the roll with the punches just ride the wave pretty much.
Sorry to hear that.
I'm also talking about this issue.
Do you think it's better to have other alternative that does or maybe it's part of the contract.
I'm not sure about like for example when you are submitting a Shopify team to the Shopify team store are you signed to be exclusive on the Shopify team store or you have the right to be able to sell in your own platform or third party platform.
So you don't have to rely on one platform to get the traffic and to get sales from there is an exclusivity agreement.
But I have been thinking about like how where that lion is drawn because like I have been thinking about like OK if we sell our theme on the theme store.
Can we sell presets and like settings like OK you buy the theme on the theme store.
Can then can you then go to our website and buy like oh here are the settings.
You can click here and it will it'll update your theme to to look like Nike or to look like Jim shark or to look like like super minimal or maybe a little more like this website.
So that's something I thought about and I don't I actually haven't talked to Shopify.
I don't know if that's something that would be against terms of service but there is an exclusivity agreement.
I just don't know where that where that line is drawn.
I mean like I know we could even like take a theme and then like customize it and then sell it somewhere else.
But like at what level of like code similarity does it count as like selling the same theme.
I'm not sure.
So I think that's maybe like something on a case by case basis basis but generally it's supposed to be exclusive to the theme store.
Yeah it makes sense.
Yeah it doesn't make sense because I mentioned something which is pretty hard to be able to rely on one platform because as you mentioned there's a couple of trade off as you mentioned like the drinking.
That's what impacts it because of like a some random spam or some other fact that you don't have control over because of the competition or like an ethical competition.
I would say that you can have control that you cannot have control over which is really hard and you have to contact the platform to be able to push them to update the algorithm and to take that in consideration which will be taking a lot of time
and a lot of pressure from other like a client or like a vendor to be able to to push the platform to do so.
So it's yeah it does make sense and like currently moving on to other like a topic.
So currently I would say what is the most challenging stuff that you have been going through with this journey of from being a general web developer.
Doing specifically Shopify doing only Shopify like as a freelancer sort of freelancer building your own company selling Shopify team and to know what is the thing that was most challenging during this entire journey.
The most challenging thing I think is just maybe for me is just to know what to focus on and it's I guess maybe that's like a challenge as like a founder having at least for me I always feel like there's like a million options like yes we can build Shopify
teams but we could also build Shopify apps and we could also for marketing we could do Facebook ads or we could do we could do content we can do videos or we can do this stuff and quickly running a business.
It's the list is like ginormous on the things you can do.
And I think the biggest challenge for me has always just been like focus and like OK like what what do I sit down and I actually do day to day and like really make this like a goal for maybe the year has always just been like OK let me sit down let me do this thing.
Once you once you kind of figure that out and like actually stick to it and be consistent I think the rest is kind of easy.
Honestly like if you're doing something and like you're doing it well and it's working out the actual work isn't too too hard it just like it takes time and it's and it's it's not easy but it's a it's like simple like just just do the work.
Make a Shopify theme make it really good and I don't know that's the rest.
Yeah it makes sense.
So the conclusion that I would get is to focus on one thing do it the best that you can and maybe later on move on to other stuff.
Yeah yeah OK that's great.
And what are the things that you would like to focus on later on you mentioned the Shopify apps.
What are the other things that you would like maybe to focus on for not only for Shopify but maybe other than Shopify.
I mean in our business where we're still 100% in on Shopify.
So yeah the main focus now is building a new Shopify theme which our new theme is going to be built similarly to Horizon so it's going to be it's going to have like theme blocks.
So if you've used Horizon yet you you play around with the blocks so you can like build different layouts you have like nested nested components basically you can have like a grid.
You can put like a table inside a grid or accordion so it's going to be like super modular and flexible that way.
That's the main focus.
I don't know if there's anything else besides that just do that maintain everything else we're doing support our customers help our customers thrive get user themes as best they can or use our themes.
And I don't know how fun how fun while we're doing it.
That's great.
So I think we cover some good ground about all the professional thing that you are doing.
And currently I would love to get what is a day to day of Thomas running the startup.
Also you can include some personal stuff even food lecture.
Yeah.
Okay.
My life.
Yeah.
So I would say day to day recently in the summer it's been a lot of different things but wake up.
You know, get some food.
Go for a walk.
Probably then work.
Maybe.
Yeah.
So do that.
And then I think after after that I've been doing a lot of swimming running go to the beach.
We're very lucky we live close to a few lakes so just drive down jump in the water.
Honestly just been trying to get outside as much as possible like it's a beautiful summer.
I've been skateboarding more biking around all that kind of stuff.
Makes sense.
That's great.
And also one thing that I saw over the Shopify and not the Shopify but over your LinkedIn
profile that you have you are like doing like a snowboard instructor as well.
Yeah.
That was a long time ago.
That's still there.
I think 2010.
2010.
Yeah.
15 years ago.
Yeah.
I was that was one of the first jobs I've had.
I was maybe maybe like the third or fourth job I've had but yeah I was a snowboard instructor
during high school and I mean that was that was a lot of fun.
I still I still love snowboarding so that's a big part of my life.
Definitely in the winter snowboarding and yeah if I wasn't if I wasn't into coding I'd
maybe still be a snowboard instructor somewhere.
That's really funny that the stuff that you mentioned because the first thing that you
are in Toronto which is the same hot course of Shopify you are a snowboard instructor
which is similar to what Toby first started the Shopify which is a snowboard shop that
he's trying to build and build Shopify.
So kind of similarity doesn't make the like the story is like quite.
It's not funny but like a unique in term of way in some way.
Like I always see that too and I've been like oh one day I got a like snowboard with Toby
and like yeah that's like or there's there's got to be like some sort of like Shopify
ski and snowboard like crossover like get to the hill like see who's a see who's like
shredding.
That's really funny.
Yeah.
That's really great.
So I think the other stuff that I would love to cover as well for the podcast episode is
what are the things or the stuff that you are really proud of during the journey that
you would like to in your top of your head.
What is the thing that you are most proud of like a tree things to think.
Yeah.
That's not something I think about often.
Maybe that's thanks for bringing that up.
But yeah I don't really think about things I'm proud of that often.
That's probably probably something I should do.
But I would say now that you're asking me honestly just building a business that can
support people like having employees and paying them and supporting them them having
like support their family and we're building software products that are being used by other
people and they're building their business using our products and that's supporting
people like it's just when you really think about it it's very rewarding to just see how
much the things we're doing is like impacting different people in different ways.
Like I would love to see how many users or how many visitors have been on a website that
uses our themes.
Probably numbers are probably crazy but I have no idea.
I wish I could see that.
That makes sense.
It's always like a good to be part of someone else's story in a good way.
Yeah.
To be able to like have a good impact especially like I saw the I saw the other day like I
didn't even know this but the new Khloe Kardashian like popcorn brand launched and they were
using or they are using our space theme and that's just that's so cool.
Yeah.
I love seeing brands launch using our themes and I love looking at them like dang that looks
really cool.
Yeah.
You are doing the right thing.
Exactly.
That's really great.
Yeah.
It's always like a great to be to have like an impact especially with like a business
owner because it's like a snow.
Snowball.
Snowball effect.
You will have like a lot of business using it and other business will be have an impact
on other business.
So it would be make the ball rolling for that which is really great and really good thing
to be like proud of.
Totally.
That the second other question will be about what are you thinking that you would like
to recommend to other people that would like to get you into the same space that you are
into for someone who would like to be like about the Shopify team maybe doing freelance.
So something that would like that's like heard about your story and would like to do something
similar or I would say similar in term of maybe a part of the journey or like the whole
journey.
I would say.
Yeah.
That's a good question.
I think my my advice if you want to like pursue like a career in like a technical field or
like development in Shopify like and maybe you don't have that experience that like just
find one or two clients and like that's how you can learn like and get paid doing it and
you're you're going to learn a lot of things along the way like finding clients is difficult
like paying them or getting paid and then like doing the actual work you're going to
discover like oh like this is something I'm into or this is something I don't like doing
or this is a problem and maybe someone should someone should build an app or a product that
helps this business that this business is having a problem with and I'm just doing this custom
solution for them and now maybe this could help other businesses the same thing.
So that would be my first recommendation if you want to like do anything entrepreneurial
and you're just getting started is just like do some freelance work like that way you can
like learn the skill like you can get a deeper understanding of the industry or this specific
like thing you're doing and you might get some insight on like what kind of product if you
want to like build a product business like what options and what options are out there
basically for you.
Makes sense okay I forgot one question that I would like to ask you during the interview
the first part which is related to AI and how do you think AI will have impact on Shopify
team specifically because we see a lot of Shopify apps some Shopify future that you can
like a generative like a content blog or some section in the Shopify team how this will be
impacting this kind of like I would say labs or Shopify teams labs.
Anything with AI I get I get a little I mean I guess it's just hard to make any predictions
because it changes so fast and I can only I can only really guess because who knows what
it's going to be like in like 10 years.
The technology has just been like progressing like very fast and it's hard to see exactly
how that's going to be adapted or adopted because of course that technology exists but
like how it's going to be used like are merchants going to use this are they familiar with it
how is the software going to be packaged up it's like there's a lot of unknowns so I'm
not completely sure but I will say that like I think it makes sense that like in the coming
years there will probably be more like AI systems or AI tools that can help Shopify
merchants edit and update and maintain their websites and to what degree I don't know but
it could be something where it's like help me update my website and then it could be
like the Shopify AI sidekick that's already like available that could just go in and like
actually move things around on your theme like oh you've got the sale coming up let me put
a banner up for you and maybe it does that but I mean that would be really cool it would
be also cool to see like AI that like maybe is even doing that automatically or is like
monitoring your website for different things like oh like the text on this page is not
readable like do you want me to fix it or this button is too small you don't have a
compelling call to action on this page you should update it I think that would be really
cool to see like that kind of like automation built in but yeah I mean I guess we'll only
see I know like we've been that's part of the reason like why I've been like trying to build
like a modular Shopify theme is like so it can be used by like an AI system where like
if you if like our new theme like an AI system could like build different layouts and like it
could put like a table in here and like a grid in here and a slider in here and it could
make like really complex things whereas like that might not be possible before so I guess
I don't know we'll have to wait and see how it really all pans out yeah it makes sense so
yeah sometimes we just are making some assumption but you don't know exactly what would be
expected but yeah it makes sense I think the stuff that you are doing will be in the right
direction of what you are like expecting especially with this AI assistant getting a lot of
things especially with agent, MCP there's a lot of things about like a related to AI that
can help with like the process of building a Shopify team or a website in general which is
really fascinating at some point and the last question that I would love to ask you about
is what is the resources that you would like to share with us in terms of online resources,
podcasts, newsletter, books anything that you would like to share with us that will be
like a beneficial to someone who is like listening to our podcast episode.
Resources, I guess it depends on like what kind of resources.
Something that will be related to as we mentioned something like a tech entrepreneurship,
building a business something that will be also maybe a personal development that will
be having an impact on your business in some way so any like either of this topic will be
beneficial to the audience.
Yeah I mean for me like the biggest resource in my life has just been the internet period
like and doing things that's the only way I've ever kind of figured out entrepreneurship
try something, Google it, read, try it again, do some reading but yeah I mean I would say
like also if you want to get into like coding definitely check out freelancing definitely
look into store task or if you want to do like Shopify specific freelancing try and get
on to there that's a great place to like look for Shopify clients.
If you want to do like Shopify coding there's like a bunch of the Shopify courses like the
like the Shopify official ones that are pretty good.
There's a bunch of like free coding courses too all on YouTube.
Yeah I don't know there's there's so much but yeah Google's the biggest resource honestly.
Yeah so you will have to have a good Googling skills to like what you want.
Yeah good Googling skills are number one for sure.
Or maybe right now we are not talking about Googling but maybe like a prompting skills
because right now you are using using less of Google and more of like a chat,
BB, cloud, stuff, stuff and also like there is also in terms of the stat is like maybe
I saw somewhere that like the like a Google penetration of like a search engine is getting
1% less right now because of the AI like a booming and the stuff that is like taking
some part of that which doesn't make sense.
Yeah yeah I mean even with that it's like there's still some like I mean I don't know
about you but I've been like approaching like AI especially in those like general
questions like with a bit of skepticism like I find that like I find that these
systems like always tend to just like stay yes like if you ask like oh like should I
do this like is this a good solution they're like that's a great solution like are you sure.
Yeah that's true and a lot of time like I will be like a prompting and like a response
into the same question and you will like it will be like something that is the opposite
of what the AI assistant will be mentioned and they will say that's really good like
I think to be able to add and it will be refined it's just like a trying not to mimic
but just like a trying to refine the answer that you are looking for but not the exact
answer that you should have.
Yeah.
That's really something that is like a bit bad about the AI assistant but you shouldn't
trust them at like a like a blindly I would say.
Yeah that's the thing I think critical thinking is important especially when it comes to using
AI even in even in like coding like if you're an expert or like a solution it's like you
definitely can't just hit yes on everything especially for like maybe like more like production
like apps that you're like actually selling and using it's fun to it's fun to just say
yes to everything if you're just like playing around and like seeing what happens but it's
a it's not at that point yet where like it's 100% trust it.
It will mess up.
It will mess up the production you will have some bugs that you will never show in the
entire like a lifetime of the product.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that was really great like a talking to you to be able to share the story about the
stuff that you have been working on.
So we have a couple of minutes to be able to say whatever you would like to share with
the audience and the mic is yours.
Okay.
Thank you so much for having me.
It's been great.
I just want to say yeah we have three Shopify themes available if you are on Shopify or
if you're a developer or agency that are looking for like a modular theme to use for developers
you can definitely check ours out.
We've got three available their papers facing Keystone and we've got a fourth one coming
out later this year and that will be using theme blocks similar to Horizon.
Yeah.
Other than that I don't really got much going on.
So you know I hope everyone listening has a great rest of their day or year and yeah
thanks for having me.
And that's great.
You are welcome.
All the things that we mentioned and all the link that we mentioned that would be in the
stronghold if you are listening from Spotify and our podcast and if you are watching us
from YouTube you will see that in the video description.
So thank you so much Thomas for staying and sharing your story with us.
It was a pleasure hosting you for today's episode and thank you for watching for the audience.